[Dshield] Netbios over tcpip never good ? (was spamcop listed)

Richard Roy RoyR at justicetrax.com
Tue Dec 16 18:52:42 GMT 2003

I don't mean to start a FLAME war, but this IS a group of security
minded individuals correct?
I must disagree strongly.  NETBIOS has NO place on the Internet PERIOD.
OUCH! I can not believe that anyone would ever be seroius about that.
MS themselves in their own training courses tells you that netbios does
not belong over the Internet.  
Why on Earth would you do any of the things you indicated unless you had
no clue how to do them more securely?
If you want to login to a website that uses NTLM, use ssl, not
If you want to map to a friend's computer, ask they why they are
exposing their files to everyone! Use VPN endpoints.  The traffic is not
encrypted unless you do so.
If your servers have netbios exposed to the Internet......you'd better
freshen up that resume.  That is what VPN is for.

I apologize if this is a bit mean spirited, but I cannot believe anyone
who subscribes to this list and reads the postings would have this type
of an uninformed attitude.

-----Original Message-----
From: list-bounces at dshield.org [mailto:list-bounces at dshield.org] On
Behalf Of allan.vanleeuwen at orangemail.nl
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 9:54 AM
To: list at dshield.org
Subject: [Dshield] Netbios over tcpip never good ? (was spamcop listed)


Sorry but I have to disagree on a lot of your points.
You are obviously somebody who thinks the internet is just FTP, HTTP and

There are lots of reasons why ports 137,139 and 445 could be used for
legal reasons on the internet.

I might want to send a message using the NET SEND command.
I might need to access a website that uses NTLM authentication instead
of plain text. I might want to map a drive to a friends computer.. I
might need to control my servers at work, from home ... Over netbios of

Netbios is used for a lot of other stuff as well.

I think it's wrong to close ports just because there are known
vulnerabilities on it ... My opninion is, it's better to patch the holes
in the software then just disable the whole thing coz it's an 'evil

Suppose FORD MOTORS sends out an advisory explaining that the door to
the drivers seat could be dangerous to get into, because it has a little
hook somewhere that some ppl have hurt themselves on ... Would you say
'Ok, from now on I'll just get into the other door, and work my way to
the drivers seat someway inside the car', or would you just remove the
hook that FORD has warned about ?

Sorry about my really bad english, I hope the analogy was somewhat
comprehensible to most of you ... English is obviously not my native


-----Original Message-----
From: Al Reust [mailto:areust at comcast.net] 
Sent: dinsdag 16 december 2003 7:16
To: General DShield Discussion List
Subject: RE: [Dshield] mail1.giac.net spamcop listed]

Hello All

SCRAPE, as I drag out the Soap Box

I partially agree, there is one thing that I do not agree on. I can see
Reason that NetBIOS over TCP/IP is ever Good! That allows a remote user
do silly thing like enumerate user accounts and password age etc.. That
why we block 135, 137~139, 445 and more at the Firewall.

A statement of what "services" are blocked and various ports associated
a User or a Small Business that are purchasing connectivity should be in

terms of the service agreement. The User expects to be "automatically 
protected," they are upset when they are not. They thought they were 
automatically. One of the recent "complaints" are ISP's are not
and allow bad things through. Which side are we on?

* If All ISP's blocked just NetBIOS over TCP/IP the script kiddies would

have to get more knowledgeable and creative. No More browsing the
Neighborhood no matter which ISP.
* If All ISP's blocked most other ports to Dialup that could get a user
trouble a large number of "Us" or Virus Companies etc.. would not be
* If All ISP's tailored require ports to what the Small Business needed
would not see various things happening are happening today.
* If all ISP's only accepted port 25 connections to the local mail
from a directly connected IP host, or other allowances via IP only then 
SPAM would not happen.
* If all ISP's did all of the Above we would not have seen 
Blaster/derivatives and MS would not have had to patch the OS or several

other things that are allowed, because of the current state of the

The World could have gone on in that "ignorant state of bliss," as it
before people found out you really could do things with/across Just

So an appropriate Statement would be, this is done in "Your Protection"
if You have requirements that require other network services we will be 
happy to discuss and accommodate. Our goal is to provide the Safest,
complete services that we can. Then discuss what comes to "our" level of

expertise. "We" then mitigate what needs to happen. Everyone knows after

that discussion.

So we are now stuck, with building Routers that can block large portions
the world and still let script kiddies attempt to break the local 
"administrator" password (NetBIOS derived) on someone else's computer 
across networks.. Then they plant things that make all our lives
While "We" are still putting Pressure on ISP's to protect us.. Why?

Lets get "our" stories straight. If we offer a recommendation to block 
these ports and why then  accommodate the "risks" for small business, it

all can be accommodated/mitigated. But the information has to be 
intelligently presented.

Otherwise we all need to get an AOL 9.0 Account (they are violating 
everything).. If you believe their advertisements it is now the Safest, 
most Sanitized Internet.. and You do not know what they doing... See 
precious threads.. LOL..

Scrape as the soap box goes back into the closet..



If You have a tirade then you are welcome to send me offline.  It any of

this strikes sense in what we have discusses in the over last few
Then discuss it.
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